KFNN Night Time Signal

JON BRUCE said:

In the late 1970's I used to pick up the Phoenix area 1510 near LAX clearly around 15 minutes before, in those days, sign off.

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Jon,

kfxm and kwow were awesome-used to listen to them as an alternative to the acid rock! "For more country music, every country mile, listen to the station at the top of the dial.." Eddie Drake had a great voice. Thanks for the memory!

Scott Fybush said:

Ah...but you and Nurse Jeff are missing the point here: without a class A station in Spokane to protect, it's not just Littleton that can upgrade. KFNN can almost surely get much more than 100 watts out of the deal...probably not a full-metro signal, granted, but enough to overcome the incoming signal from Littleton.

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The Nurse and I've looked at this from a number of different angles and come to the same conclusion: what's the point? The Littleton, Co station hits the Valley pretty good at night. If they go for more nightime juice, it'll be a real pissing contest between them and KFNN. The format of KFNN is ideal for daytime hours and money spent on improving the nighttime signal is a waste unless theres a plan to sell in the near future. As far as AM goes, it's terminal with fewer and fewer ratings success stories each year.

See, KXAM is good for something after all!

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And don't forget Lumberyard 14~Forty, Gumpdusky's local AM service for Scottsdale. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

KJCB said:

Brian, nothing personal, but let's lay off the criticism of KFNX. KFNN is an example of what local radio should be?

I didn't say that!! Re-read the post.

Hmm?! Let's see, the only local shows, other than your morning show (good guy) are hosted by people who, like the hosts at KFNX, pay for them time.
Besides being untrue, it misses the point - you want to compare us to KFNX because people pay to play? We've had offers to clear all kinds of content that we could've lied to ourselves and said 'fit our format' for sake of money. We have a pay model because talented people who trade stocks don't want to work for the wages that you and I do - the math simply isn't there. Find me a pure station that lasts and doesn't take money at every turn it can in one way or another, and I'll show you a few someone on the way out. There are more financial people who want on air than hours we've got-we could take gold guys' half hour money on a Tuesday at 4:30 but we don't - know why? Because there are standards, and for the pay model that we do have, we make the absolute best we can. When you can have a guy on the air for an hour who works for one of the largest financial firms in the country, and be the number 1 producer in the country for that company (attributing 100% of his success to KFNN), and that same financial firm won't buy spots on your station because Arbitron says you have no audience, what do you do? How do you make money? What's your successful model, given our limitations? This is why I hate this board - because you speak completely out of ignorance. It's crystal clear based on your defense of KFNX and your comparison to KFNN. I never let morons pay to play at Midnight $150 so they could shout the 'F' word blowing at 50,000 watts.

The rest of the time is filled by arrogant putzes like Ray Lucia and sheisters like the Stock Doctor, some of whom also pay for the time.
Lucia is arguably (and folks back me up here) one of the more radio savvy guys on our station, and provides helpful advice if you'd care to listen.

Your service elements are piped in from Metro.
Again, who isn't doing this besides Clear Channel and Bonneville at some level? And listen after the first of the year - that's going to change.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt you've got people manning that ship 24 hours a day - isn't it mostly automated?
Find me someone besides CC and Bonneville who isn't - our station is manned much more than you think.

At least you know KFNX has someone at the helm because they've got people paying into all hours of the evening.
I've heard the quality overnight on KFNX. I'm not convinced it helps.

You at KFNN, the business station, should know that radio is a business. Perhaps I'll change my mind the next time 1510 blips in some demo with a 0.3, but until then, let's not think KFNN is exactly mass market radio. It's devised to make Ron Cohen a tidy sum of money, and I think that's great. Even if no one is listening. But let's not call the kettle black.
Read my earlier point. Dude, the only thing I was defending was accusations that we abuse night power.

BTW, can we get it over with the "colon cleansing" shows. Every station runs them, even KFYI. What differentiates KFNX is the same thing that differentiates KFNN. But, an automated, largely devoid of talent, super-niche format is apparently so beloved to some of us that it can do no wrong.

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You need to re-read this post. All of your arguments are misdirected. I only had one argument. I've got an identity - I've said who I am. I do it because I'm proud of what we do, and have done consistently for 18 years. I'm sorry that you're over there, and feel the need to defend that.

The amazing thing is (and you'll see this if you actually read what I said), I actually have no real problem with KFNX's model - it's not our flavor, and it's not my cup of tea... My problem with KFNX is the same as everyone who bashes them on these boards - they don't respect the business their in or people who listen to radio - it's the stuff that the local industry sees and hears happening that makes their stomach turn.

We do the absolute best quality broadcast we can with the limitations we have.

Wassup with the power change at 6:57pm Thursday nite (11/02) ??? You guys change power at sunset PST or have some post sunset authorization? The Nurse and I have a real struggle listening to 15~ten after dark, but Thursday night it was boomin' through the Gremin's radio!

BTW Doc--Thursday (today) is 11/01, not 11/02.


And just a refresher course now that it's November...
power up at 7:00am, power down at 5:30pm.

Source: FCC AM Query. Queries for KFYI, KTAR, KFNX,
KXAM, KAZG and KFNN all returned the above.

oldiesfan6479 said:

BTW Doc--Thursday (today) is 11/01, not 11/02.


And just a refresher course now that it's November...
power up at 7:00am, power down at 5:30pm.

Source: FCC AM Query. Queries for KFYI, KTAR, KFNX,
KXAM, KAZG and KFNN all returned the above.

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A tip of the fez for catching the correct date, Master of Blasts from the Past! Obviously we were tippin' something else last night when we made that faux paus.

Nurse Jeff and I are anxiously waiting a response from KFNN, as a power change an hour and a half past local sunset is rather KFNXish. However we've heard of stations allowed to keep running day power until local sunset in some other city, so maybe there's an explanation. At least we could hear the replay of Gary K's first hour from 6:00 to 6:57pm.

I'm looking at the lamptimer as soon as I get a chance.

Brian: If you read what I said, you'd have seen I live in Southern California. That would be some commute to work at KFNX. So that eliminates much of your argument based on the fact that you think I do work there. Also, please do not rope me in with you by saying "you or I" "don't make as much" as people trading stocks. I try to keep my personal career of this board, but I also trade stocks and, if you want to compare incomes, I'm ready when you are.

I never said KFNN abuses night power. I also don't necessarily think KFNX intentionally or even knowingly keeps night power that high. Read the last NAL from several years back. What I did say is the fact that you air talentless dopes telling me what stocks to buy is no different from KFNX airing talentless dopes telling me how to fix my computer or buy a house. You claim you "don't mind their model" but it's not your "cup of tea". Then you go on in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE to say that it bothers you that they "don't respect" their listeners or "the business". Why? Because they airing programs that make your "stomach turn". Hmm? Well, judging by the last full book I saw, KFNN must be causing quite a bit of dyspepsia as well. There aren't too many people the want to listen to Lee Siler. Your earlier argument, that someone is the top producer for whatever investment company they work for, means nothing. I'm the #1 all-time hot dog eating champion... does that mean I'll do a good radio show? You've bought into your paying clients' Big D--- Syndrome that they're the greatest because they can trade stocks. And to a point, they're right... when I want to continue my portfolio's 30% returns, I'll call them. When I want to hear quality radio, I won't listen to them. I'm happy your clients can make money doing radio shows, but for them to delude themselves (as the vast majority of brokered hosts do) that their shows are revolutionizing the radio industry is silly.

ndugu said:

financial firm won't buy spots on your station because Arbitron says you have no audience, what do you do? How do you make money? What's your successful model, given our limitations? This is why I hate this board - because you speak completely out of ignorance.

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Well, I'm sorry to hear you hate this board entirely because of me. Nevertheless, I'm not disputing your right to make money or even that you shouldn't broker time. I'm all for brokering time for stations that came late to the party, have bad signals, or other limitations that make it difficult to compete. But you're taking both sides of the argument. On one side, you sound like the programming people and jocks on this board who are idealistic and don't understand the value of a dollar. These are the people who say stations should be all about good radio and the community and music and should spends themselves into bankruptcy before they'd do something that would turn a profit but "compromise" radio. But then you complain that you wouldn't make money under that approach... so you sell time. As I said originally, I think KFNN is a great business model and should keep up what it's doing in the name of making Ron Cohen rich. But what's good for the goose is good for the gander. The fact that KFNX takes, as it seems you want to argue, "worse" brokered shows that wouldn't meet your standards, is insignificant. You are not the arbiter of good taste in brokered radio.

You seem angry, and I don't know what I did to work you up - but it wasn't intended. I'm really not saying that the hosts are holier than thou, I'm saying that we work hard to find some level of talent, and try to develop what's not there when and how we can. We really don't just take someone solely for sake of a dollar.

And every investor and financial planner differs on their opinion about who's quality (relative to their stock/investing advice), and thinks the other's theory sucks or isn't as good as theirs. I'm not speaking to that one way or another except to say I'm aware of it and accept it.

I'm not playing both sides of the fence as you say, and it may be because of a mis-statement on my part about KFNX. I made a decision on my last post to NOT talk about how KFNX disgraces radio and has no respect for it, but it's not because of their programming - it's because of the tactics and shady things I've seen them do first hand OFF the air that I state that opinion. I chose not to go into those details because they are defamatory; they're not hearsay, they're first hand accounts I've seen. If I knew you and this was a private conversation, I'd tell you. Something tells me that others may have seen a thing or two themselves in this market, given the things that they say on this board. KFNX is much more attractive from San Diego - and as another person posted on here said, you may be the only person who said a kind word about KFNX. It's also why I assumed you were connected to them.

The 'what do you do' question was posed as a general hypothetical: I'll rephrase so you won't take it personally: "What does one do?"

And the fact that I take issue with many of the posts on the board (and you KNOW this is a fact), there are a lot of people who bark from the sidelines and criticize with no regard for what went into a decision, who only say what they do under anonymity, and who have never had to make a hard decision in radio. LET ME BE CLEAR - That's not everyone on this board, 2. I love programmers and people who get radio and know they're entitled to opinions, 3. I'm not for removing those I don't like from boards, and 4. It's just what I like or don't. Why do you care about my opinion on it anyway, when you seem to think I'm so backwards in my thinking? Why is what I think of some of the people who post on this site at all important to you? You never existed to me until now, despite what I now see as thousands of posts where you feel the need to be heard. Maybe somehow thinking that I said "I hate this board entirely because of you" is connected to that need to be heard everywhere.

I love how you're "all for" brokered radio, but have not yet missed an opportunity to say "for the purpose of making Ron rich." The only reason to throw that into each post is for some kind of dig. When nobody gets rich off of a radio station, we'll talk about Ron. He's in business. So are you I assume.

I'm one of the few that will stick up for what we're doing here as a station, because I watch a great deal of work go into it everyday. It's not appropriate here to go into money spent, earned, and the work that goes into making this sound as good as we can, but it's an important part left out of this argument - I could work elsewhere in this business and do well, I've stayed here because I love the concept - you say you do, but drive in those digs about getting rich and bashing financial guys either for being Scheisters (sp?) or bad radio hosts with huge egos - that's your thing. I don't have that kind of anger, and I should just know better than to engage you, because you clearly are angry.

I'd love to know truly what you do, and where the chip came from. Not bashing you - just thinking it may be interesting based on your comments.

A quick check of several AM freqs around 7:25pm MST Friday reveals...

KFNN 1510 Mesa is currently legal as the Littleton/Denver override
is, well, overriding anything else on the freq here in the 'Tuke.

OTOH, the upstanding radio professionals : at KFNX 1100 Cave Creek
are--now don't get ahead of me here--once again acting as the
illegal power aliens of radio as they are still blasting 50 gallons.

Too bad ICE doesn't work on behalf of the FCC--round 'em up,
cut the crystal. ;D

Brian,

I am not angry, but I get concerned when everyone on this board seems intent on pushing one side of an argument that may not be as rational as they think. Perhaps you are better than many here, but there is, in the radio business, an idealism that hurts the medium's business prospects.

To correct you, it is LA, not San Diego. And I lived and worked in Phoenix for four years. I drove by your studio and through the light rail traffic almost daily for much of that time. I am familiar with many of the same people I'm sure you are, including people who've worked at various stations. I don't know what practices you speak of; I do know that I've known at least person who was fired from an off-air job at KPHX for not being "liberal enough". We can surely all find things we dislike about different stations. Let's face it... people are entitled to their opinions, but I'll bet many of the members of the "KFNX Haters" clique are the aforementioned idealists who are upset the station doesn't do something "productive" with itself. Where was the criticism of KFNX when it was trying to be a "real" station, with local hosts, lots of news, and little brokered time? The same people owned it, yet nary a word. The minute the current format returned, it was back to complaining and name-calling. Coincidental perhaps? 1190 used to get thrashed here, too, albeit not as badly, when it was a brokered operation. I've yet to see one word on the station since it flipped to a "real" format. Another poster just now refers to KFNX sarcastically as "upstanding radio professionals"; (s)he and I may agree on other topics, but it helps my point that people here love to make broad criticisms of those whom they disagree with.

I am not critizing KFNN. I could care less how you run your station to make money... it's not my business. The fact that I invoked Ron in the discussion was merely to point out my support for you doing whatever makes money. And I agree that many on this board make illogical comments about stations that have made "hard decisions" in the interest of business. We are on the same page on that, as I am called out for my understanding of decisions that insecure radio people who live in fantasyland revile. If you want to call me out on my number of posts, go ahead. It's been over the course of approximately four years on this board. David Eduardo, who, IIRC, runs the programming department for an entire Spanish-language radio conglomerate, posts here more frequently than I. I'm glad he does, because it is often very educational... are you insinuating he, as I presume you are of I, is some kind of nobody because he frequents here? People post here because they enjoy radio.

I hate to see this devolve into a personal discussion, because I come here, as stated, to talk about radio... not politics as some posters try to, or life stories, but for you to think I am angry is, again, the pot calling the kettle black. You have insinuated that local radio owners are somehow unprofessional because you've seen their dealings "first hand". Well, I too, have seen firsthand the dealings of some of your hosts and clients and I say the same of them. That doesn't make me angry. I merely made a comment in passing. I realize I will be seen as the bad guy in this argument because I stand up for KFNX. I already am - you claim I have a "chip" when all I am doing is expressing my differing point of view on these issues brought up by you. I am merely setting the record straight about myself, as there have been plenty of incorrect statements made of me here. Other than that, I don't know how what I do is relevant to my comments any moreso than a jock whose station gets flipped and calls the new format "stupid".

Good luck with your endeavors.

I was looking for the smiley where the face is biting off its tongue. You don't understand exactly what I'm trying not to say about KFNX, and it's not about format, or any of that. It's waaay worse - and notice the post above yours - they're still doing their same old tricks regarding power.

Another last point - I remember two posts ago that I erased the line about KFNX that talked about my hopes for them around the election when they went "straight" and got ratings. I knew that the owners were the same, but certain people within that organization were not necessarily "in charge" then. I can only speak for me, but the only reason I didn't post positive comments about them at the time was because I didn't make a regular habit of posting then - I knew, and made no secret of the fact that losing money at that level, and trying to claw your way up the ratings ladder was hard work and that I hoped that they could sustain it. My suspicions (and those on this board) certainly came true when they restructured under bankruptcy, and went back to the old model.

oldiesfan6479 said:

A quick check of several AM freqs around 7:25pm MST Friday reveals...

KFNN 1510 Mesa is currently legal as the Littleton/Denver override
is, well, overriding anything else on the freq here in the 'Tuke.

OTOH, the upstanding radio professionals : at KFNX 1100 Cave Creek
are--now don't get ahead of me here--once again acting as the
illegal power aliens of radio as they are still blasting 50 gallons.

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Yo, Master of Moldy Oldies... great report, but two hours AFTER local sunset when power is to be reduced. Tell ya what, you take the even numbered days and the Nurse and I'll take the odd ('cause we are) and the three of us will keep these two honest. Deal?

Dr. Akbar said:

Yo, Master of Moldy Oldies... great report, but two hours AFTER local sunset when power is to be reduced. Tell ya what, you take the even numbered days and the Nurse and I'll take the odd ('cause we are) and the three of us will keep these two honest. Deal?

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"...or no deal" maybe, as I'm not sure I'll always be radio-accessible at 5:30.

As to whether a "power check" two hours later has any validity, it does if
one uses the assumption (now I know that's dangerous ;D) that if you're
on night power/pattern you probably switched at the specified time, and
if you're not then you've likely been playing "illegal power alien" since 5:30.

Even if an alleged perp broadcaster (cough...1100...cough) powered down at 5:30
then powered back up at 7:00 for the extremely important Colon Blow
Infomercial Hour (or whatever), it's just as non-compliant in terms of
one's FCC license.

BTW, as long as we're playing hall monitors--or rather radio monitors--
here, we should also resume checking Lumberyard 1440 as to lamp timer
accuracy, legal ID or no legal ID, etc.

ndugu said:

I'm looking at the lamptimer as soon as I get a chance.

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Better buy a new one, and this time don't get a Gumpdusky castoff. ;D

Looks like Akbar was dead-on with his earlier mention from Thursday
of 6:57pm, if tonight (Saturday November 3) was any indication, as
KFNN 1510 Mesa did not go to its night power/pattern until...6:57.

I turned on the Sangean ATS 909 at 5:28 to scope out a few freqs:

Lumberyard 1440 was already off the air.

KFNX actually dropped power around 5:30-5:31. (Amazing, ain't it?)

I kept waiting for KFNN to do something, and I kept getting a listenable
signal here in the 'Tuke--about 40% on the meter--until it almost totally
dropped off the table (with the power drop) at 6:57.

oldiesfan6479 said:

ndugu said:

I'm looking at the lamptimer as soon as I get a chance.

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Looks like Akbar was dead-on with his earlier mention from Thursday
of 6:57pm, if tonight (Saturday November 3) was any indication, as
KFNN 1510 Mesa did not go to its night power/pattern until...6:57.

I turned on the Sangean ATS 909 at 5:28 to scope out a few freqs:

Lumberyard 1440 was already off the air.

KFNX actually dropped power around 5:30-5:31. (Amazing, ain't it?)

I kept waiting for KFNN to do something, and I kept getting a listenable
signal here in the 'Tuke--about 40% on the meter--until it almost totally
dropped off the table (with the power drop) at 6:57.

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Your observations are the same as Nurse Jeff and mine. The Colon Blow station was legal at 5:30pm, while KFNN dropped to 100 watts at 6:57pm. Hmmmmmm....we thought the PD was looking into this as we confirmed the exact same time on Thursday (11/01). If anyone has time to search the archives, the Nurse and I have reported KFNN's inability to observe local sunset several times earlier this year. So much for the "automated" system at KFNN. We're headed to Kmart for an official Gumpdusky lamptimer to keep them from getting fined!

Sunday November 4:

Lumberyard 1440 was already in Silent Sam mode at 5:24pm.
Can anyone check Monday morning to see how much before 7:00
they come on, or if already on with the 52 big ones, power up?

Snake Oil 1100 played by the rules and powered down at 5:30.

As for KFNN 1510, another "oops" as power drop was again not until 6:57.
A few more "oopses" and they risk--for them--an unwanted induction into
the PHX radio engineering hall of shame, as only the third member. ;D

oldiesfan6479 said:

Sunday November 4:

As for KFNN 1510, another "oops" as power drop was again not until 6:57.
A few more "oopses" and they risk--for them--an unwanted induction into
the PHX radio engineering hall of shame, as only the third member. ;D

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6:57....the new 5:30pm!