Boston Red Sox: WEEI Real Time/ TV 38 and NESN Tape Delay

Not sure if I should post here on New England TV but since more people read this than New England TV I will take my chances.

Been trying to watch the Red Sox on Television with the Mute on while I turn up WEEI's broadcast. 'EEI broadcasts in real time but both TV 38 and NESN broadcast on a tape delay of at least 8 seconds. So, I hear what's happening 8 or so seconds before I see it. Plus, both 38 and NESN are running commercials while play is on the field.

Question: why do the broadcast the Red Sox on a tape delay. Do they expect a wardrobe malfunction or it is a ploy so that we don't turn on WEEI and Mute the TV ?

Now more than ever it is because of indecency laws. Kiss 108 airs on a 8 second delay, and they dont even have a way to dump programming. Most news stations don't have a delay, although some of them should.

I'm 150% positive it isnt because they dont want you to listen to the radio and watch the TV. NESN still gets the ratings point either way.

Live Television = Delay is proper procedure.

> Not sure if I should post here on New England TV but since
> more people read this than New England TV I will take my
> chances.
>
> Been trying to watch the Red Sox on Television with the Mute
> on while I turn up WEEI's broadcast. 'EEI broadcasts in real
> time but both TV 38 and NESN broadcast on a tape delay of at
> least 8 seconds. So, I hear what's happening 8 or so seconds
> before I see it. Plus, both 38 and NESN are running
> commercials while play is on the field.
>
> Question: why do the broadcast the Red Sox on a tape delay.
> Do they expect a wardrobe malfunction or it is a ploy so
> that we don't turn on WEEI and Mute the TV ?
>
<P ID="signature">______________
-TheGuy...InTheRadio</P>

>
> Been trying to watch the Red Sox on Television with the Mute
> on while I turn up WEEI's broadcast. 'EEI broadcasts in real
> time but both TV 38 and NESN broadcast on a tape delay of at
> least 8 seconds. So, I hear what's happening 8 or so seconds
> before I see it. Plus, both 38 and NESN are running
> commercials while play is on the field.

There are a few reasons for the delay. First off, if you're watching on a DSS system (DirecTV or Dish), all of your local channels for some reason or another are at least 5 seconds behind the actual live broadcast. I think this is due to the relaying of the transmission up to the satellite and then back down to your receiver rather than just straight over the air. Also, if you're using today as an example, they are playing away in Chicago. For some reason, whenever they're away, WEEI is always faster than the TV networks, be it Fox, WSBK, or NESN. Usually when its a local game, I can catch the audio from WEEI on WPRO-AM here in Providence and watch NESN on Cox Cable with no visible delay at all.

> > I have Comcast Digital Cable but I don't remember the situation being this bad last season.


> > Been trying to watch the Red Sox on Television with the
> Mute
> > on while I turn up WEEI's broadcast. 'EEI broadcasts in
> real
> > time but both TV 38 and NESN broadcast on a tape delay of
> at
> > least 8 seconds. So, I hear what's happening 8 or so
> seconds
> > before I see it. Plus, both 38 and NESN are running
> > commercials while play is on the field.
>
> There are a few reasons for the delay. First off, if you're
> watching on a DSS system (DirecTV or Dish), all of your
> local channels for some reason or another are at least 5
> seconds behind the actual live broadcast. I think this is
> due to the relaying of the transmission up to the satellite
> and then back down to your receiver rather than just
> straight over the air. Also, if you're using today as an
> example, they are playing away in Chicago. For some reason,
> whenever they're away, WEEI is always faster than the TV
> networks, be it Fox, WSBK, or NESN. Usually when its a local
> game, I can catch the audio from WEEI on WPRO-AM here in
> Providence and watch NESN on Cox Cable with no visible delay
> at all.
>

No, this is not satellite-exclusive. There is an overall delay. The delay is longer on satellite or on the HD broadcast...

Example: WHDH airs live. No delay. And I can talk to someone there and see her lips move as she talks behind the scenes...hardly a delay. The Red Sox game...a delay. They may have "upped" the delay since last season.


> > > I have Comcast Digital Cable but I don't remember the
> situation being this bad last season.
>
>
> > > Been trying to watch the Red Sox on Television with the
> > Mute
> > > on while I turn up WEEI's broadcast. 'EEI broadcasts in
> > real
> > > time but both TV 38 and NESN broadcast on a tape delay
> of
> > at
> > > least 8 seconds. So, I hear what's happening 8 or so
> > seconds
> > > before I see it. Plus, both 38 and NESN are running
> > > commercials while play is on the field.
> >
> > There are a few reasons for the delay. First off, if
> you're
> > watching on a DSS system (DirecTV or Dish), all of your
> > local channels for some reason or another are at least 5
> > seconds behind the actual live broadcast. I think this is
> > due to the relaying of the transmission up to the
> satellite
> > and then back down to your receiver rather than just
> > straight over the air. Also, if you're using today as an
> > example, they are playing away in Chicago. For some
> reason,
> > whenever they're away, WEEI is always faster than the TV
> > networks, be it Fox, WSBK, or NESN. Usually when its a
> local
> > game, I can catch the audio from WEEI on WPRO-AM here in
> > Providence and watch NESN on Cox Cable with no visible
> delay
> > at all.
> >
>
<P ID="signature">______________
-TheGuy...InTheRadio</P>

I work for Comcast. I might be able to solve a part of this mystery for you...

Comcast began in March Phase I of III in a project called All Digital Simuilcast (ADS). ADS means that all of the Limited Basic (Channels 2-23 except for metro Boston) and Expanded Basic (Channels 24-71 except for metro Boston) which makes up Standard Cable will be available in both analog and digital when the project completes.

At the present, we are still in Phase I of III. Phase I has completed in most areas of MA/NH which means all local broadcast channels (i.e. CBS 4, ABC 5, NBC 7, FOX 25, UPN 38) will be in digital, BUT ONLY if you have a digital Motorola DCT box or a TV with a CableCard installed (digital cable ready TV). The existing analog signals remain in tact for analog cable ready TVs, but additionally they are being transmitted in digital in higher frequencies (above analog channel 71) in digital QAM 256 compression (same as digital channels 201 and above). Channel numbers are still in the same positions to the end user, except you would receive the digital signal instead.

So now that I explained that; the local broadcast stations in digital (if you have a Comcast digital DCT) are about 5 seconds delayed because of the encoding/decoding of digital. If you were watching the Red Sox on UPN 38 with a digital box, this is another reason for the delay

By the way, ALL cable channels will be 100% digital (like satellite) when Phase III completes which with luck will be by the end of Q3 2005. All you need is Basic or Standard cable, plus a digital box rental (either a standard digital box, HDTV box or an HDTV/DVR box (TiVo branded service is coming in 2006 too!)). Anyway... don't mean to turn this into a Comcast ad... <grin> ~

Hope this info helps!<P ID="signature">______________
- Rick</P>

Hey, while you are at it, can you send your management a note saying that if my cable internet goes down one more time, I sue? Thanks

haha...


> I work for Comcast. I might be able to solve a part of this
> mystery for you...
>
> Comcast began in March Phase I of III in a project called
> All Digital Simuilcast (ADS). ADS means that all of the
> Limited Basic (Channels 2-23 except for metro Boston) and
> Expanded Basic (Channels 24-71 except for metro Boston)
> which makes up Standard Cable will be available in both
> analog and digital when the project completes.
>
> At the present, we are still in Phase I of III. Phase I has
> completed in most areas of MA/NH which means all local
> broadcast channels (i.e. CBS 4, ABC 5, NBC 7, FOX 25, UPN
> 38) will be in digital, BUT ONLY if you have a digital
> Motorola DCT box or a TV with a CableCard installed (digital
> cable ready TV). The existing analog signals remain in tact
> for analog cable ready TVs, but additionally they are being
> transmitted in digital in higher frequencies (above analog
> channel 71) in digital QAM 256 compression (same as digital
> channels 201 and above). Channel numbers are still in the
> same positions to the end user, except you would receive the
> digital signal instead.
>
> So now that I explained that; the local broadcast stations
> in digital (if you have a Comcast digital DCT) are about 5
> seconds delayed because of the encoding/decoding of digital.
> If you were watching the Red Sox on UPN 38 with a digital
> box, this is another reason for the delay
>
> By the way, ALL cable channels will be 100% digital (like
> satellite) when Phase III completes which with luck will be
> by the end of Q3 2005. All you need is Basic or Standard
> cable, plus a digital box rental (either a standard digital
> box, HDTV box or an HDTV/DVR box (TiVo branded service is
> coming in 2006 too!)). Anyway... don't mean to turn this
> into a Comcast ad... ~
>
> Hope this info helps!
>
<P ID="signature">______________
-TheGuy...InTheRadio</P>

Yeah, and while you are at it tell them that A la Carte is the way of the future. I really don't need another cheap jewelry shopping channel on my TOO EXPENSE COMCAST CABLE. In my town, Comcast gives us crap for our community television. Looks like equipment from 1949.


> Hey, while you are at it, can you send your management a
> note saying that if my cable internet goes down one more
> time, I sue? Thanks
>
> haha...
>
>
> > I work for Comcast. I might be able to solve a part of
> this
> > mystery for you...
> >
> > Comcast began in March Phase I of III in a project called
> > All Digital Simuilcast (ADS). ADS means that all of the
> > Limited Basic (Channels 2-23 except for metro Boston) and
> > Expanded Basic (Channels 24-71 except for metro Boston)
> > which makes up Standard Cable will be available in both
> > analog and digital when the project completes.
> >
> > At the present, we are still in Phase I of III. Phase I
> has
> > completed in most areas of MA/NH which means all local
> > broadcast channels (i.e. CBS 4, ABC 5, NBC 7, FOX 25, UPN
> > 38) will be in digital, BUT ONLY if you have a digital
> > Motorola DCT box or a TV with a CableCard installed
> (digital
> > cable ready TV). The existing analog signals remain in
> tact
> > for analog cable ready TVs, but additionally they are
> being
> > transmitted in digital in higher frequencies (above analog
>
> > channel 71) in digital QAM 256 compression (same as
> digital
> > channels 201 and above). Channel numbers are still in the
>
> > same positions to the end user, except you would receive
> the
> > digital signal instead.
> >
> > So now that I explained that; the local broadcast stations
>
> > in digital (if you have a Comcast digital DCT) are about 5
>
> > seconds delayed because of the encoding/decoding of
> digital.
> > If you were watching the Red Sox on UPN 38 with a digital
>
> > box, this is another reason for the delay
> >
> > By the way, ALL cable channels will be 100% digital (like
> > satellite) when Phase III completes which with luck will
> be
> > by the end of Q3 2005. All you need is Basic or Standard
> > cable, plus a digital box rental (either a standard
> digital
> > box, HDTV box or an HDTV/DVR box (TiVo branded service is
> > coming in 2006 too!)). Anyway... don't mean to turn this
> > into a Comcast ad... ~
> >
> > Hope this info helps!
> >
>

> Now more than ever it is because of indecency laws.

I watched a Sox game on Channel 38 several years ago where after a bad call by the ump a fan sitting (presumably) near one of the park's live mics shouted "What the f##k", which went out live over the air.

> So now that I explained that; the local broadcast stations
> in digital (if you have a Comcast digital DCT) are about 5
> seconds delayed because of the encoding/decoding of digital.
> If you were watching the Red Sox on UPN 38 with a digital
> box, this is another reason for the delay

Rick forgot to mention that the compression on many of those channels is being driven so hard it's like watching a webcast. Perhaps this will get better when the analog feeds go away and that bandwidth is freed up. In any event, it's objectionable enough to me that I wouldn't be a Comcast subscriber if I lived in Comcast territory. ("Digital" does not always equal "better" - a good strong analog signal picked up directly off the air can look remarkably good under the right circumstances. And I'll take analog AM on a good receiver over the thin, over-compressed noise that passes for "CD quality" on the satellite radio talk channels.)

In any event, "live" is fast becoming an obsolete term in the broadcast universe. Almost every hop a remote broadcast makes - from the stadium to the radio/TV station's studios, from the studios to the transmitter/cable headend/satellite uplink, and from the transmitter/cable headend/satellite uplink to the consumer - now includes some amount of digital compression, which introduces an unavoidable delay of anywhere from a fraction of a second to a few seconds. Cascade those over a few digital hops, and it's not out of the question for 10 seconds or more to elapse between the time the bat swings at Fenway and the time you hear it at home.

If you were sitting at Fenway listening to WEEI, I'd bet you'd notice that there's some transmission delay there, though no doubt far, far less than on TV. But none of this delay is introduced intentionally by the broadcasters in question; it's an artifact of today's "state of the art" in digital transmission.<P ID="signature">______________
Tower Site Calendar 2005 NOW AVAILABLE! - <a target="_blank" href=http://www.fybush.com/nerw.html#calendar>www.fybush.com</a></P>

Comcast is getting out of the community access game. They really are sucking them dry. The former station I was involved with is still running off of S-VHS, although it would be DRASTICALLY less expensive if they were using Mini-DV.

Then you look at Non-profit access stations...Melrose. Melrose has an AMAZING SET UP...gets about $250k a year from the city and Comcast. They have 2 studios, a live truck, several mini-dv cameras and edit bays.

Comcast, everything theyve done comes with an asterisk. They increase modem speed, but today I had a 6 hour cable outage, tv and internet. They add more channels, and they completely cut funding to access stations.

Eh.


> Yeah, and while you are at it tell them that A la Carte is
> the way of the future. I really don't need another cheap
> jewelry shopping channel on my TOO EXPENSE COMCAST CABLE. In
> my town, Comcast gives us crap for our community television.
> Looks like equipment from 1949.
>
>
> > Hey, while you are at it, can you send your management a
> > note saying that if my cable internet goes down one more
> > time, I sue? Thanks
> >
> > haha...
> >
> >
> > > I work for Comcast. I might be able to solve a part of
> > this
> > > mystery for you...
> > >
> > > Comcast began in March Phase I of III in a project
> called
> > > All Digital Simuilcast (ADS). ADS means that all of the
>
> > > Limited Basic (Channels 2-23 except for metro Boston)
> and
> > > Expanded Basic (Channels 24-71 except for metro Boston)
> > > which makes up Standard Cable will be available in both
> > > analog and digital when the project completes.
> > >
> > > At the present, we are still in Phase I of III. Phase I
>
> > has
> > > completed in most areas of MA/NH which means all local
> > > broadcast channels (i.e. CBS 4, ABC 5, NBC 7, FOX 25,
> UPN
> > > 38) will be in digital, BUT ONLY if you have a digital
> > > Motorola DCT box or a TV with a CableCard installed
> > (digital
> > > cable ready TV). The existing analog signals remain in
> > tact
> > > for analog cable ready TVs, but additionally they are
> > being
> > > transmitted in digital in higher frequencies (above
> analog
> >
> > > channel 71) in digital QAM 256 compression (same as
> > digital
> > > channels 201 and above). Channel numbers are still in
> the
> >
> > > same positions to the end user, except you would receive
>
> > the
> > > digital signal instead.
> > >
> > > So now that I explained that; the local broadcast
> stations
> >
> > > in digital (if you have a Comcast digital DCT) are about
> 5
> >
> > > seconds delayed because of the encoding/decoding of
> > digital.
> > > If you were watching the Red Sox on UPN 38 with a
> digital
> >
> > > box, this is another reason for the delay
> > >
> > > By the way, ALL cable channels will be 100% digital
> (like
> > > satellite) when Phase III completes which with luck will
>
> > be
> > > by the end of Q3 2005. All you need is Basic or
> Standard
> > > cable, plus a digital box rental (either a standard
> > digital
> > > box, HDTV box or an HDTV/DVR box (TiVo branded service
> is
> > > coming in 2006 too!)). Anyway... don't mean to turn
> this
> > > into a Comcast ad... ~
> > >
> > > Hope this info helps!
> > >
> >
>
<P ID="signature">______________
-TheGuy...InTheRadio</P>

You Wrote:

> Rick forgot to mention that the compression on many of those
> channels is being driven so hard it's like watching a
> webcast.

Absolutely Scott, I notice this big time on my HDTV. I hope as well that when (someday) analog goes away, the compression will be lowered. I used to have a C/KU-band dish from 1986 (before all the networks went VCII scrambled) until about 1998, but the trees grew too tall and blocked out the lower arc birds (then C1, C4, G1, C3, G5) and we had to get rid of it.

The picture on these full analog signals are UNBELIEVEABLE because there's no compression obviously. Since it was (is) a first generation signal direct from the broadcaster, I am sure that was another reason why. If I had the option, I would have a Motorola 4DTV receiver with a C/KU dish once again (see www.4dtv.com). I have also had DirecTV and Voom (which recently ceased, but Dish Network took over some of the programming).

If anyone is interested in talking more about this topic, perhaps we can move this thread over to television/New England <P ID="signature">______________
- Rick</P>

Being from Rhode Island, I was much happier when I had Cox than I do with Comcast up here. The cable internet seems to go down every day or two, and for some reason I can't get channels 5 and 6 (WCVB and NECN). No slight against Rick, I'm just not very happy with Comcast.

Jacko<P ID="signature">______________
I live for my dream,
And a pocket full of gold.
</P>

It isn't just the Red Sox. Here in Connecticut, you'll notice a slight delay with the Yankees games on YES. Compare it with the audio of the Yankees game on either WCBS-AM 880 New York City or WPOP-AM 1410 of Hartford. It's not as drastic as you all are descrbing with NESN and HDTV, but it's still there.

Wait until they go digital...you'll be able to get those channels. I had the same problem when I lived in Revere, MA...its a wide spread issue. I suggest you get a digital box...that'll get rid of that likely.


> Being from Rhode Island, I was much happier when I had Cox
> than I do with Comcast up here. The cable internet seems to
> go down every day or two, and for some reason I can't get
> channels 5 and 6 (WCVB and NECN). No slight against Rick,
> I'm just not very happy with Comcast.
>
> Jacko
>
<P ID="signature">______________
-TheGuy...InTheRadio</P>